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![Climate crises and public health in Africa with Saad Uakkas and Nolita Mvunelo](https://pbcdn1.podbean.com/imglogo/ep-logo/pbblog14157043/T5E_-_Podcast_Series_Templatesbt5wr_300x300.png)
2 days ago
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The impacts of extreme weather events and climate crises are threatening many of the hard-won advancements in public health infrastructure across African countries.
In this episode of the special series ‘We Kinda Need a Revolution’, host Nolita Mvunelo is joined by Saad Uakkas, a medical doctor and executive chair of the African Youth Initiative on Climate Change. They discuss the profound effects of nature crises on public health and the urgent need for systemic solutions. Together, they explore the importance of intergenerational leadership in building resilient and sustainable public health systems.
This episode is part of a series highlighting the need for a New Generational Contract.
How can we foster equity and mutual support between generations? This is one of the key questions being asked by The Fifth Element, an initiative from The Club of Rome and partners. To find out more visit: www.thefifthelement.earth
Full transcript:
Nolita: We kinda need a revolution. Welcome to this special edition of The Club of Rome Podcast exploring how we can work together across generations to mobilise action for a regenerative future. To get there, we need some systemic change, a revolution of sorts, maybe. I am Nolita Mvunelo, programme manager for The Club of Rome.
And in this episode, we'll be diving into the topic of public health in nature crises. Joining us today is Saad Uakkas a Moroccan medical doctor and a youth engagement and
empowerment specialist. We're seeing a growing frequency of nature crises across the world. More recently, the floods in Kenya have resulted in a loss of over 230 lives and 40,000 households displaced. And similarly, in 2022 on the east coast of South Africa, flooding claimed over 300 lives. These events are catastrophic and pose a serious threat to the lives of many with far reaching impact tearing away hard won gains in public health and infrastructure. So I turn over to you Saad, firstly, thanking you for joining us and also asking you to briefly introduce yourself.
Saad: Dr Saad Uakkas here, I am the Executive Chair of the African Youth Initiative for Climate Change, which represents and unites African young people all over the continent. I'm also in the environment working group of the global Mental Health Action Network. So, working on the intersection of climate change and mental health on the global level. Medical doctor by background, climate actor by passion, and young African from Morocco, so great to be here.
Nolita: Thank you so much for joining us. So in January 2024, the World Economic Forum released a report quantifying the impact of climate change on human health, which projects that by 2050, climate change could result in an additional 14.5 million deaths and 1.1 trillion US dollars in extra health care costs. With your extensive experience as an MD working with young people on climate change issues, what specific health challenges have you observed, that could contribute to such significant impacts in the next few decades ?
Saad: I already started seeing that when I was a medical student seeing more respiratory diseases in the city I worked on Kenitra, which has really large industrial parts. And that was one example how pollution both air water pollution affected health of you know, the local population. So we have seen that we have see more people come in with also infectious diseases also that was something not only in Morocco, but all over the continents, you know, in the way that weather pattern change, and rains, patterns also change, this affects the habitats of vector-borne diseases. And also, when the weather is warmer, more insect-borne diseases can spread more easily and for longer periods. So this constitutes a huge threat for us in Africa, especially with all the neglected tropical disease with like infectious diseases like malaria, and those insects being able to live longer and in more places, you've been talking about disasters, you know, recently in Morocco, we had this earthquake, and you know, I remember people in Pakistan in Libya, with those floodings that they had in UAE, and you know, the houses that are being lost and the habitats and all those infrastructure, this usually has a direct impact on people's livelihood, on people's food security, and then the thing that I work most on, on people's mental health, and I can't tell you enough, how crucial that is, when you lose your house, when you lose your livelihood, your daily life. Here, we're talking, for example about farmers in the rural areas that don't have access to water to agriculture anymore. So livelihood lost, And they're obliged to migrate to find a new source of income. Those people usually they have huge mental health consequences out of that and with with psychologists with mental health professionals, we've been seeing that, you know, the need for mental health supports for people because of all the uncertainty because of all the impacts of climate change has been immense and then finally, you know, health systems and usually here we're talking about, you know, for example, the continents, we have hospitals and weak infrastructure, and especially in the rural areas, so the health system is not ready to cope up with the impacts of climate change. So when a disaster happens, resilience is not there. So usually you have a health system which loses electricity or which loses, you know, people lose access to hospitals, because of climates or disaster events, you know, when something related to climate change happens, people really get affected lose access to health, basic health care services, and it can affect them, you know, just losing access to medication can really have huge effects in your life if you're in a rural area. And then, of course, you have food security, you know, with the lack of water with all the effects of agriculture, food security is a very, very important one. So impacts of climate change on health, we can talk about a lot of aspects. And, you know, one thing is, recently, the World Health Assembly that happened in Geneva, recognize that and they voted for a resolution for the first time they adopted that in the World Health Assembly related to climate change and public health, recognising that today, climate change is the number one killer is the number one disease. And as you said the amount of lives that are threatened because of climate change is huge. So today, this is a very relevant discussion for all of us to be aware of this intersection, and to know what steps we need to take in order to, you know, take care of our health to improve the health system resilience, and prevent climate change in the future.
Nolita: Thank you for such a comprehensive answer. It makes me want to ask a very specific question because of your background. Having worked as a medical doctor, you have a particular focus on healthcare. Additionally, you work closely with young people on climate change and climate resilience. Practically speaking, what interventions have you seen coming from the youth constituencies you work with in addressing climate-related disasters and healthcare?
Saad: One concrete example is young people conducting research by being in the field and gathering data. That's step number one for me. I've seen many young people across the continent working at the intersection of climate and health, being on the ground, doing surveys, and identifying issues within their communities. For instance, we have a strong collaboration with the International Federation of Medical Students Association and the African Youth Public Health Association. These health-related youth groups are collaborating to conduct data gathering and research actions. Young people are working on improving food systems by promoting climate-smart agriculture and agroecology. This involves using natural seeds, reducing water consumption, and creating holistic ecosystems that minimize pesticide use. Such practices lead to more sustainable and healthier agriculture, which enhances food quality and, consequently, the health of local populations. Another area is advocacy. Young people are using health arguments to advocate for policies and decisions aimed at preventing and controlling climate change.
Here, for example, I'm talking about people gathering data on pollution, the effects of industry, and the impacts of greenhouse gases on people's livelihoods. They then advocate together using media, joining the voices of health professionals, and pushing for policies to improve the situation. Additionally, engaging in dialogue with the private sector is crucial. This involves discussing how to prevent negative health outcomes, holding industries accountable, and pressuring them to reduce emissions. By including the private sector in the conversation, we can collaboratively work to decrease the health impacts of climate change. Policy action is essential in driving these efforts forward.
One very good example is the youth group in Nigeria, Susty Vibes. They are doing great work in addressing climate change and mental health. One specific aspect they focus on is climate care for activists who are working within the space and constantly witnessing the negative impacts of climate change. They emphasize the importance of self-care for young people, as it can become overwhelming when facing such a large issue. Susty Vibes addresses climate anxiety among the youth generation, acknowledging that young people often feel that the problem is too big to solve alone. They stress the importance of taking breaks and having a support system to avoid being consumed by the enormity of the challenge. Susty Vibes provides this support system for young activists in Nigeria and West African countries, helping them care for themselves. Climate anxiety and self-care are crucial not only for climate activists but for everyone. In today's fast-paced world, where we strive to make a positive impact, it's essential to remember to take care of ourselves and maintain a support system. Mental health and well-being keep us going, and it's vital to prioritize them on this journey. Young people are actively engaging in community action and using health arguments to advocate for change.
When engaging with people and promoting individual actions, such as recycling or adopting a waste management approach within the community, it's important to educate them about the health impacts. For example, choosing to walk or bike instead of using a car directly benefits personal health. Encouraging a more sustainable lifestyle can have immediate positive effects on health. When advocating for behavior change, emphasize the benefits of eating more local food, more vegetables, and generally more sustainable food options. This not only supports a healthier diet but also promotes overall well-being.
If you are living a sustainable lifestyle, incorporating more walking and an active lifestyle, you are taking better care of your health. For the government, pushing for smart cities and clean cities with green spaces and accessible walking areas can significantly impact public health. Cities designed with better public transport and reduced car usage directly benefit the health of their residents.
Nolita: Thank you. That’s such a comprehensive answer. It speaks to the systemic nature of the problem, as you touched on many crucial points. The way we build our cities is one consideration; mental health is another critical aspect. Collaboration among young people in different sectors and specialties, as well as advocating for change in the private sector, is also vital. My next question is: Have you seen examples of successful collaboration with the public sector, both at the local and international levels? I ask this because public health is a significant part of the social fabric of society.
There are interventions that can be implemented at the community and individual levels. However, the resilience of healthcare systems requires substantial participation and planning from all parties involved. Do you believe there is room for young people to work with various public sectors in different countries? If so, what examples have you seen of this collaboration?
Saad: The first action the public sector needs to take to recognize this intersection is to work together. For example, having a climate change department within the Ministry of Environment is a concrete step where public health professionals can begin integrating climate reflections and discussions into their work. The intersection between climate and health has been acknowledged for a while, but concrete actions have only started recently. In many regions, this conversation is still ongoing. One practice I have observed is pushing for climate education and awareness within the health community. For instance, doctors and health ministries are advocating for better climate change knowledge among healthcare professionals. This is crucial for effectively addressing issues like vector-borne diseases, malnutrition, and air pollution-related health problems.
If you are managing a healthcare facility at the local level and you encounter the impacts of disasters or climate change affecting the local population, what types of healthcare services should you offer? How can you address these challenges effectively within your facility? Ensuring the resilience of your healthcare facility is crucial in the face of events like earthquakes or flooding. For instance, if there's a power outage due to climate-related issues, how can you enhance the resilience of your facility? These are essential dialogues that need to take place with the public sector.
Another crucial aspect to consider is how to reduce the climate impacts of the healthcare system itself. While healthcare is not the biggest polluter, making it greener is still essential. For example, in Marrakesh, Morocco, there's a green hospital that is exploring waste management systems for healthcare facilities. There's a need for dialogue about integrating health and climate strategies at the local level. This involves working with health ministries and climate ministries to develop models for green, clean, and healthy cities. The goal is to create environments with access to clean air, green infrastructure, and healthy lifestyles.
These discussions need to be localised, as solutions will vary from city to city and region to region. Building a green, clean, and healthy community is a shared responsibility. Engaging the public sector, making them aware of the intersection's importance, and pushing for concrete policies and infrastructure improvements is the way forward. You mentioned that addressing these issues is not only incredibly local but also deeply personal, as health is closely tied to individual well-being and the availability of resources. My next question concerns intergenerational leadership. We’ve discussed collaboration across different sectors and the need for transformation, but how can intergenerational leadership and learning contribute to accelerating progress in public health and environmental crises?
Intergenerational dialogue and collaboration can significantly accelerate progress on climate change and public health issues. For example, in Tunisia, there is a youth negotiators group that has been active for the past two years. This initiative trains young people in climate negotiations and involves them as negotiators representing their country. By integrating the expertise and innovative perspectives of young people, the country benefits from fresh ideas and community insights that can lead to more effective climate policies. Young leaders, particularly those involved in NGOs and grassroots movements, are crucial in bridging the gap between policy and community action. They not only participate in policy discussions but also play a vital role in implementing these policies at the local level. Their energy and expertise in community mobilization help drive education, capacity-building, and social media engagement. Also, fostering innovation through intergenerational collaboration is essential. Hackathons and working sessions that bring together young innovators with public and private sector leaders can generate new solutions for the climate and health crises.
It's either technology or indigenous solutions that are brought back and amplified to address these issues locally. Additionally, intergenerational action plays a key role in global policy. I mentioned how young people can play a role in diplomacy by sharing experiences and learning from each other. For example, within the African Youth Initiative for Climate Change, young people reflect on what's happening and share their insights. We are also organizing the Regional Conference of Youth Africa soon, where young people will come together to engage in similar intergenerational dialogues. These discussions extend to the global level with significant entities like the African Development Bank, the African Union, UN agencies, and various foundations.
When it comes to the continental and regional levels, it's crucial to reflect on the current realities and identify opportunities we can tap into today. Engaging young people in these discussions and supporting the momentum on a regional level is vital. This ensures that while we act locally, we also think globally. Tapping into expertise, as you mentioned, highlights the importance of having a systems perspective, which allows us to see the whole picture. This approach helps us understand the complexity of the challenge and recognize that we can be masters of our own fate by seeing the entire problem for what it is.
Nolita: Thank you for showing us the intricate nature of this issue. If you had one last piece of advice or a question someone of any age should ask themselves when starting to work on public health and nature crises, what would it be?
Saad: Health and climate are both realities that we must care about today. As a young person, understanding that these are the two biggest factors that can affect my life and the life of my children is crucial. They need to be healthy and have a good life, which requires a good environment around them. Recognising that health and climate are the most important existential conversations for our generation is essential. So, how can we take care of our environments in our daily lives? How can you take care of your health in daily life? Eating healthy, walking, and maintaining an active lifestyle are essential. Given our diversity, it's important to consider how you can contribute to making your country or the world healthier and cleaner from your own space and through your daily activities. Whether you're an engineer, working in the private sector, or in any other profession, ask yourself how you can make your work less polluting and improve the health and well-being of yourself and your community. If you're an architect, a medical doctor, a health professional, or involved in environmental work, think about how you can incorporate climate and health conversations into your work. Depending on your role, asking yourself how you can make your world healthier and greener is a very important action.
Of course, it differs from person to person. You don't have to be an activist, an advocate, or part of an NGO to make a difference. It's the small actions that count. Recognising the importance of these issues and understanding what you can do on a personal level are key. Contributing to resilience is what truly matters.
Nolita: This is the key issue that truly matters: how can we make our societies more resilient? As individuals, how can we become more resilient to the risks we face? How can we improve the infrastructure and systems we live in to make them more resilient to health and climate impacts? This is the most important discussion we need to be having because numerous consequences are at stake. We can contribute to this resilience on a daily basis from our own perspectives.
A collaborative approach is essential. What systems, networks, and groups are out there taking action in a specific area you care about? How can you join them and bring your perspective to the table? Collaborative action is the way forward. It's about contributing to resilience.
Saad Uakkas, thank you so much for joining us today and for this engaging discussion. Thank you also to our listeners for tuning in to the Club of Rome podcast. For more information, please visit our website at clubofrome.org.
![Building climate resilience with vulnerable city dwellers with Sheela Patel and Philippa Nuttall](https://pbcdn1.podbean.com/imglogo/ep-logo/pbblog14157043/Patel_graphic_1_83amv3_300x300.png)
Friday Jun 28, 2024
Friday Jun 28, 2024
1 billion urban citizens live in informal settlements like slums and shanty towns, vulnerable to the most extreme impacts of climate change - flooding, prolonged drought and unprecedented heatwaves. India is in the eye of this storm — in May 2024, places in northern India, including Delhi, were suffering under temperatures as high as 50C, with those experiencing poverty most affected.
In this episode Philippa Nuttall is joined by Sheela Patel, activist, founding director of the Society for the Promotion of Area Resource Centers and member of The Club of Rome to talk about the challenges faced by informal communities and the need for the experiences of these often excluded citizens, particularly women, to contribute to ensure effective climate initiatives and urban planning.
Full transcript:
Philippa: Welcome to the Club of Rome podcast exploring the shifts in mindset and policy needed to transform the complex challenges facing us today. I'm Philippa Nuttall, a freelance journalist and editor of Sustainable Views. And in this episode, we're going to be talking about climate resilience. I'm going to be speaking to Sheela Patel, the founder and director of The Society for the Promotion of Area Resource Centres, which is an NGO based in Mumbai in India that has been working since 1984 to support community organisations of the urban poor to secure housing and basic amenities. Sheela, thank you for being with us today. It's a great pleasure to speak to you.
Sheela: Me too.
Philippa: To kick us off. Perhaps you can explain to us what we mean by climate resilience and what's your interest in the subject?
Sheela: We believe that for any change to happen, behaviour, values, investments, knowledge, transitions have to happen in communities who are vulnerable, with all of us who are professionals who work with them. One of the flaws of the past development paradigm has been that we treat poor communities like charitable beneficiaries of whatever we throw at them, and we expect them to be very substantial and benevolently accept everything. And if it doesn't work for them, they don't take it. So we have worked very hard to produce strategies in which the transition produced by new knowledge for any change we believe has to happen across the board. So when we approached climate, which was not very long ago, just before the Paris Agreement, we were very uncomfortable with these silos that emerged in development and climate right from the UN, down. In the lives of poor people it's all meshed up and it's integrated. And therefore we believe that it's as important for communities to understand what is adaptation for changing your resilience, to dealing with unplanned episodes of climate, of extreme weather, that are now coming faster and faster at all of us, how they have to acknowledge themselves as first defenders whenever any crisis happens, and to take on that role seriously in making representation, in producing data, in producing evidence and demanding accountability from state and non state actors, while making their own contributions. So this is the way in which we work and we bring that same process into the climate space.
Philippa: Thanks. And sort of concretely, what have you been actually doing in the area of climate resilience with the urban poor to help them achieve the aims that you've just outlined?
Sheela: So a lot of our work has been to learn, as professionals working with communities, what is the climate science, theorisation and practical action, what does it mean in the lives of poor people? And what we explored together with community women was that extreme weather of wind, of high velocities, rain that came down in sheets, in ways and times that people didn't understand, and heat, which are the most common things that people experience when they live informally, was impacting every element of their lives. And in the conversation that we have with women, we started a campaign called What Women Want, which is to ask women leaders of very poor communities, not only in India, but through Slum Dwellers International's network of women leaders collectives in almost 17 countries, of what were the challenges that they were facing? And there were lots of challenges, but their priorities was their homes, which is symbolic by saying that their roofs were just unable to deal with extreme weather. The roofs flew away, they leaked, and they made their homes into ovens, and they didn't know what to do with it because that didn't happen 15 years ago. The second thing they said is that COVID demonstrated to them that food that was not grown nearby was completely inaccessible to them when there were curfews and where there were problems. So food, health. COVID brought out all the ways in which we don't look at the social determinants of health and the need for women to understand how climate was affecting both chronic and infectious diseases. So, health. The fourth one was transport. We all know in COVID, we were all stuck at home, but poor women had to go and work, and they had to find informal transport, which often ended up being as much as the wages that they earned. And so all these helped us look at the flaws in how our cities coped with crisis and how it impacted poor people. And the last one, which was traumatic. And interestingly, this was long before, you know, the climate change process understood the concept of losses and damages. They basically talked about how their lives are completely destroyed equally by physical demolitions of their homes, by their cities, and by climate episodes. There's no difference in our lives whether it's done by the city and bulldozers, whether it's done by a cyclone or something like that. So these kind of insights, the starkness of what was not designed to include them, like, for instance, all our cities all over the world, and definitely in the global south, are putting in a lot of investment in public transport to try and get more and more people out of cars into public transportation. Well, they're designed in a way that has nothing to do with informal settlements. So people have to use informal tuk tuks and bicycle rides and all those and walking to reach a public transport point. And as the public transport gets more and more sanitised to attract people like you and me. It got more and more expensive. So a lot of our work is now attempting to produce large groups of people all over the world, aggregating evidence to show what they needed and the starkness of what was not being done for them. And a very good example of that is the, is the campaign we started with the first of the five things called Roof Over Our Heads.
Philippa: Before we go into the campaign specifically, could you explain to us a little bit why you're working specifically with women rather than men?
Sheela: Several reasons. From the time we started this work 40 years ago, we realised that the challenges that we were picking up were not quick and easy wins. If you want tenure, you want basic amenities. We've often taken 15 or 20 years to get legislation. It's taken another ten years to actualise it in the form of investment that will produce evidence that such a thing is possible. All of us in our network, including the men we work with, say that men are, you know, men are very good at hundred metre dashes. You want something done quickly, you go to the guys, you want something that's going to take a long time, requires patience and perseverance and tenacity. You go to the women.
Philippa: And is also part of the reason for working with women, because they are particularly impacted, especially in some of these informal communities, in terms of having to, they're the ones that, I presume, put food on the table, who are responsible for the children, who could be impacted more if there is damage to the house, either through destruction, through the city being changed, or through climate impacts?
Sheela: Well, that's true, but I'm also very critical of campaigns, processes and projects that instrumentalise women. You know, everybody says, oh, you educate a woman and you educate the family, you give a loan to a woman and it invests. But nobody talks about that woman's emancipation, her ability to withstand pressure, to be subservient, who gives her voice and the right to make representation. So our work not only seeks to involve individualwomen, we create an aggregation of women's collectives, so that in all things where, you know, that's why you need social movements rather than projects. So we want to make this process such that it fulfils both aspects, that women learn to talk about themselves, they learn to represent themselves, they learn to negotiate. And the most powerful element that women bring through their advocacy is deep persistence.
Philippa: And could you perhaps use the project Roof Over Our Heads to give us some concrete examples of how what you mentioned as the theory is being put into practice?
Sheela: We're at a very early stage. What we are trying to do right now is to build a knowledge base to make an assessment of what is the resilience quotient index of their present homes. You know, it's like tomorrow, if you are living in Europe and your city has never faced real serious heat, then you've got to look at elements in your house that are not producing the ventilation, that are not producing the coolness, because your house was designed to hold in heat, not to give out heat. So you always have to make an assessment. Now, informal institutional arrangements, we have engineering companies and scientists who do that for us, so we just have to tick some boxes and we know what it is. But in the case of poor people, this doesn't exist because they build their own homes. It breaks, they upgrade it, they incrementally improve it. So what we are doing right now is that we are doing 17 settlements in ten cities in India where we are designing these processes with women's collectives, because our goal is that they should be able to identify every element of design, material and construction techniques of their own homes, so that they understand that from the perspective of resilience and its robustness to cope with these extreme weathers,and then work with professionals to change that, to make it resilient. But in the process develop a confidence that this is the right thing to do.And then they become the agents of further dissemination, first in their neighbourhoods and then in their cities. So the whole idea is that you start with making women confident of their own assessments, their abilities to make representation and then to negotiate. And then through this, a group of women and a group of professionals are now going to travel to different countries and different regions and train people like themselves there. The idea being that the most powerful form of learning, in our opinion, is peer learning. And we are very ambitious because we are saying we are going to talk to informal, like waste pickers and recyclers, from whom they get a lot of their material, to big cement, steel, tin roof, plastic, all the materials that are actually produced by big companies and networks of companies. To say, if 45% to 70% of people live informally, how can your commitment to hit net zero also embrace the social justice part of it? It's like we've got a big web of different things happening, but the excitement is that it's extremely decentralised. We produce the methodology, we share it, and then everybody who wants to deal with different elements of it participates and contributes. And our role is to kickstart about 100 labs in Asia, Africa, Mena, Latin America. We don't know so much of the Caribbean and we don't know much of the island cities and states, and we are putting everything into the public domain. We're not worried that somebody will steal the idea. We want everybody to steal the idea because we feel it's the best compliment anybody can take from you. No, it sounds super inspiring and very exciting. I was wondering if you're talking about informal communities, obviously you want these solutions to be permanent to a certain extent, that you're not putting in place something and then the community has to move on, or certain houses are destroyed because the government changes its plans.
Philippa: How do you plan to, or do you plan to work with local or national policymakers around these projects so that these become part of the sort of policymaking and they're not just seen as a system apart from the mainstream policymaking?
Sheela: You ask me my most favourite question.
Philippa: Excellent.
Sheela: The reality is that in Asia, where I have the statistics, I don't have it for Africa, 92% of all people who live informally, which is on an average, about 45% of cities design, construct and finance their own homes illegally. And if you calculate in the last 40 years that we've been doing this, the volume of research, investment, advocacy, subsidies, all these things put together, they haven't even reached 8% of the people who live informally. What we are learning today is that people coming into cities is a result of our global economic order of production and global efficiency models that are making rural livelihoods unviable. And that if families need to feed themselves, feed their children, keep a healthy life, have aspirations, they come into the city. The other crazy thing is that if you look at all our large metropolitan cities, they're becoming metropolitan regions, they're becoming ten times their size in the global south. So Mumbai, which the greater Mumbai is, say 12 million, it now covers in the metropolitan region ten times that size. So it's about 25 million people, and it's only 40% so far, which is urban, the rest is still rural. So what we're saying is that both the climate crisis and all these weather crises, and our economic, global economic order, which is very cash based, which is based on extraction, is going to push more and more people into the cities. So this traditional way of saying, can you give us tenure? Earlier, we could blame the colonists, because the colonists didn't want to give land to everybody, but now you are all democracies, but you are still not giving land for a right to live in the city. Although your constitution says you can move anywhere, earn anything, do anywhere. But planning doesn't give you land. So the only way poor people get access to land is to encroach. And at the moment, it's paradoxical, because they are encroaching on spaces that are very ecologically sensitive. So earlier we used to have fights with the so called environmentalists, as grassroots urban activists, saying, if you don't actually anticipate the people coming into the city and you don't provide them with spaces to stay, then they're going to be informal. They're going to be informal traders and agents and sellers. So most of our global and national advocacy is to say, this is the reality. You can continue with your old fashioned attempts to evict and demolish, but you are destroying the asset base of very, very poor people, and they aren't going anywhere. They are here to stay. So Roof Over Our Heads is not a permanent solution. And we are neither saying it is permanent nor attempting to make it permanent. We are trying to make it possible within the constraints in which people live, to make it more resilient. It's a very practical and simple way to say that you start with the most vulnerable and you walk through the challenges. So already I can tell you that two of the settlements that we were working with in India, in the state of Odisha, they have had to relocate. We did the assessment of their homes and then they have to be relocated and they chose to be relocated, and we're going to work with them in the new places to see how they can use existing and new materials to improve their homes.
Philippa: I was just going to say, in terms of that you've mentioned the challenge of relocation, but also in terms of the timelines, you said, for example, men are good at the 100 metre sprint, but women are better potentially over longer timeframes. Obviously, in terms of climate change, there's the long term change in terms of warming and the impacts, but there's also some very immediate challenges when there is a sudden storm or flash floods. And so how do you work with those kinds of different timeframes?
Sheela: I mean, are there sort of solutions you're looking at as very immediate solutions in terms of resilience, and then this longer term kind of change of logic as to how you approach these communities. The only choice we make is to work with the most vulnerable communities, and we do that because we believe that development never trickles down. So it's the exact opposite of this low hanging fruit business that a lot of us do in development, where you say that if you get early gains, then you'll get more money. But those solutions never work for the most poor. But the solutions that you develop for the poorest are more easily applicable and adaptable to better off, even within the range of the people living informally. So that is the only serious choice that we make. And we are going to follow all the lives of those people who have to relocate or who have to move and to understand how to make that transition as just as possible. Not pretending that we are God and we can just sort of take a wand and change everything, but that we, that they have a support structure that will walk them through their choices and their possibilities, but will also bring them to the attention globally. So right now we, we have a very committed network of women's collectives in Kenya, in Nairobi, who face these horrible floods that are going on right now. And because they lived by the rivers whose overflow they had, they got some money as compensation for the destruction, but the government is going to evict them from there. Now look at the irony of this process. So we are taking this globally. We are talking to mayors' organisations, we're talking to the climate change people working in disasters and saying we need to have a conversation that makes mayors aware that this is not a just action and we are supporting them in whatever they want to do. Our goal is to follow and not to, and never to pretend that we will have some beautiful, fabulous solution that you can take photographs of. It's not going to be like that. It's very humble, it's very simple. And it starts really where people are.
Philippa: A very different approach than we see in lots of the big sort of climate change international conferences. I wanted to bring us on to that. We obviously had COP 28 last year, where loss and damage was a big, important piece of a decision that needed to be made, how that was going to work, how the money was going to be distributed, where were the money was going to come from. You mentioned loss and damage before. We've got COP 29 coming up, which is supposedly going to be a climate conference around climate finance. Do you see a space within these big COPs for more of a humble approach, more of a community based approach like you've outlined, that can potentially make the most of, for example, loss and damage or climate finance initiatives? Or do you see your approach as being very separate to these big international meetings and sort of perhaps it can achieve more by not being in a way, perhaps contaminated by these big overriding messages.
Sheela: We don't look at anybody as adversarial. So we have a bunch of organisations that have a global presence, who see people like me and the work we do as local evidence to what they're doing globally, and we use them to bring out this, our messages and our ideas. And so in all the discussions where we could be with Sandrine, for instance, in the food security thing or in the other aspects of whatever, we had a contribution or an insight to make, we were there. We were there as much to see who else was there. What were they saying? How can we learn to relate to more communities and networks, as well as to support that process? Because we truly believe that the solution has to emerge that acknowledges that we are all living on this very vulnerable planet together. And all these wars and all this local and global adversarial behaviour is quite dysfunctional when you are facing this sort of planetary challenge. So that's the way we look at it. We don't look at it as, and we also learn to articulate our representation in the context of where these issues are very obviously absent. And that, for me, is very, very important, because many of the people who come to do research, they don't come with bad intentions. People who give money through philanthropy or through bilateral or multilateral assistance, it's not that they are bad, but they are stuck in a very old fashioned framework. You know, I call it the 19th century framework, very colonial, very northern driven. And all those, if you talk to people privately, they tell you that it's not worked, money has gone wasted, it's gone to the wrong places, it's not reached the right groups. Sometimes it doesn't even get disbursed because the rules are so ridiculous. Nobody wants to take any risks. Nobody wants to say they made mistakes. So these are all the things that we are learning how to reformulate, to say, if you don't take risks, you're not going to learn anything.
Philippa: Sandrine Dixson-Declève, the Co-president of The Club of Rome, she's been one of the voices who's called for a reform of the COPs. Do you think there needs to be a reform? So voices like yours and like climate resilience networks are heard more in these big international fora?
Sheela: Absolutely. I'm a signatory to the letter she wrote. So, yes, and I think that I don't, I don't see, I see these as very constructive, powerful messages that we are sending to say, we're not going to be old fashioned and walk away. We're going to insist that you change, because if you don't change, you're not fulfilling the obligations that your leadership requires. Could you explain a bit more your reasoning behind joining The Club of Rome and how it helps with the agenda that you're working on? Well, you know, it's strange that The Club of Rome celebrated 50 years. I have also worked for 50 years. It's my 50 years too, of work.
Philippa: Congratulations.
Sheela: So you see an organisation which has made these predictions for me, that's been very interesting, you know, this whole thing of planetary limits. So for me, I was, my, I looked initially as, when I saw people talking about The Club of Rome, I saw this as a very elite northern institution because that's a perception a lot of us feel. And then during COVID when there were web meetings and discussions, and I always made representations saying that it's not working for poor people. Your messages don't reflect what poor people need or that unless they become entrenched in the solution, it's not going to be realistic. I got invited to be a member and I'm a noisy person, so I make a lot of noise and I learned a great deal. I got a lot of support from many of the things that they do. I mean, our interest in food and agriculture, our interest in transport, our interest in disasters. There were things that The Club of Rome were doing that address some of these issues, had, you know, scientists and very well known climate champions that I got to meet, I got to talk. It's a privilege to be able to exchange views, to make representations. For me, the important thing is to produce engagement that brings people who don't generally talk to each other to be able to have conversations with ease, conversations that allow each other to challenge the other without it being adversarial. Because real ideas require these things.
Philippa: I think we're going to have to close it there, Sheela. But thanks very much for speaking to me. It was super interesting and really inspiring, the work you're doing. And good luck with the rest of your projects.
Sheela: Yeah, and if you go to Roof Over Our Heads, you'll see all our materials. You see all the people who are there talking differently about different aspects.
Philippa: Great. Thank you very much and good luck. And thanks for listening to The Club of Rome Podcast. And for more information, please visit clubofrome.org.
![African self-liberation and new narratives of hope with Mamphela Ramphele and Nolita Mvunelo](https://pbcdn1.podbean.com/imglogo/ep-logo/pbblog14157043/NEW_NARRATIVES_HOPE_THUMBNAILbnvxo_300x300.png)
Thursday Nov 09, 2023
Thursday Nov 09, 2023
Almost thirty years after the end of apartheid, Black South Africans still fight for African liberation from colonial narratives. While previous generations struggled to end apartheid, younger generations now face the task of reimagining themselves, their communities, and the world. Mamphela Ramphele, The Club of Rome co-president and Nolita Mvunelo, The Club of Rome program manager discuss the need for intergenerational collaboration to combine the wisdom of older generations with the energy of younger ones. The need for social equity ties into the idea of ecological civilisations as an alternative to our current society. Ramphele and Mvunelo emphasise the need to consider freedom for all life, not just humans and see the Earth Charter as an opportunity to help build a new narrative for ecological civilisations.
First published in Earth Charter International
![Empowering female leadership in times of global challenges](https://pbcdn1.podbean.com/imglogo/ep-logo/pbblog14157043/Female_leadership_thumbnail7fhm6_300x300.png)
Monday Nov 06, 2023
Empowering female leadership in times of global challenges
Monday Nov 06, 2023
Monday Nov 06, 2023
This episode explores the transformative potential of female leadership. Our expert guests, Sharan Burrow, Sylvia Mukasa and Anna Rathmann delve into the nuanced aspects of what female leadership truly means in times of unprecedented global challenges, from tackling environmental crises to addressing social inequalities and the role of businesses.
This podcast is a cooperation between The Club of Rome and BMW Foundation moderated by Philippa Nuttall.
![David Collste - Research and strategies for accelerated systems-change - Earth4All Series](https://pbcdn1.podbean.com/imglogo/ep-logo/pbblog14157043/Accelerated_systems_change_thumbnailabsr2_300x300.png)
Friday Jul 14, 2023
Friday Jul 14, 2023
In this episode, David Collste,researcher and modeller at the Stockholm Resilience Centre talks about the Earth4All framework's research and strategies. Winner of the Donella Meadows Prize 2023, David's work focuses on the future of human development in the Anthropocene.
This is part of series of interviews profiling The Earth4All: an international initiative convened by The Club of Rome, the PIK - Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research, the Stockholm Resilience Centre and the BI Norwegian Business School to accelerate the systems-change needed for an equitable future on a finite planet.
First published on The Mona Morrell Podcast
![The Club of Rome’s Nolita Mvunelo: Panic at the Disco, Pink Elephants and Pluralism](https://pbcdn1.podbean.com/imglogo/ep-logo/pbblog14157043/Pink_elelphants_and_pluralism_thumbnailb1szj_300x300.png)
Friday Jul 07, 2023
Friday Jul 07, 2023
Nolita Mvunelo, Program Manager at the Club of Rome, and co-lead of The 50 Percent, talks to The Aspect about the importance of integrating multiple future visions and particularly the views of young people who make up half the world's population.
First published on The Aspect
![Hunter Lovins - Five tranformations for a sustainable future - Earth4All Series](https://pbcdn1.podbean.com/imglogo/ep-logo/pbblog14157043/FIVE_TRANSFORMATIONS_thumbnailbssd3_300x300.png)
Friday Jun 30, 2023
Friday Jun 30, 2023
In this episode, Hunter Lovins member of The Club of Rome, Earth4All contributor and the founder of Natural Capitalism Solutions, gives a personal insight into the five extraordinary turnarounds for a sustainable future outlined in Earth for All: A Survival Guide for Humanity.
This is part of series of interviews profiling The Earth4All: an international initiative convened by The Club of Rome, the PIK - Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research , the Stockholm Resilience Centre and the BI Norwegian Business School to accelerate the systems-change needed for an equitable future on a finite planet.
Published first on The Rhona Morrell Podcast
![Owen Gaffney: Building a sustainable future through climate action and systems change](https://pbcdn1.podbean.com/imglogo/ep-logo/pbblog14157043/Sustainable_future_climate_action_thumbnailbk8i0_300x300.png)
Thursday Jun 22, 2023
Thursday Jun 22, 2023
In this episode, Owen Gaffney, lead author of Earth for All: A Survival Guide for Humanity, talks about building a sustainable future through climate action and systems change.
Owen shares valuable insights on the urgency of climate action, the importance of systems change, and the role of collaboration in tackling these complex issues.
First published on Global Partners for Development.
![Anders Wijkman - The need for transformation not incrementalism- Earth4All series](https://pbcdn1.podbean.com/imglogo/ep-logo/pbblog14157043/TRANSFORMATION_NOT_INCREMENTALISM_thumbnailaom22_300x300.png)
Wednesday May 03, 2023
Anders Wijkman - The need for transformation not incrementalism- Earth4All series
Wednesday May 03, 2023
Wednesday May 03, 2023
In this episode Anders Wijkman, Honorary President of The Club of Rome and Chair of the Governing Board of Climate-KIC talks to The Rhona Morrell Podcast about the urgent need for transformation not incrementalism and for investment in green economies and global equity.
This is part of series of interviews profiling The Earth4All: an international initiative convened by The Club of Rome, the PIK - Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research , the Stockholm Resilience Centre and the BI Norwegian Business School to accelerate the systems-change needed for an equitable future on a finite planet.
Published first on The Rhona Morrell Podcast
![Jayati Ghosh: What Earth4All means for most of the world’s people.](https://pbcdn1.podbean.com/imglogo/ep-logo/pbblog14157043/What_Earth4All_means_thumbnailb0hq9_300x300.png)
Friday Apr 14, 2023
Jayati Ghosh: What Earth4All means for most of the world’s people.
Friday Apr 14, 2023
Friday Apr 14, 2023
In this episode, Jayati Ghosh, a co-author of ‘Earth for All’, outlines how reducing inequality is the key to a just transition towards a greener economy. The talk is moderated by Roberto Pasqualino from the University of Cambridge.
This was part of the 50th Anniversary of ‘The Limits to Growth’ Seminar Series, hosted by the Centre for Environment, Energy and Natural Resource Governance (CEENRG) at the University of Cambridge, in collaboration with the Club of Rome, Bennett Institute for Public Policy at the University of Cambridge, and the Global Sustainability Institute at Anglia Ruskin University.
![Roberto Pasqualino - From World3 to modelling financial implications of global energy crisis](https://pbcdn1.podbean.com/imglogo/ep-logo/pbblog14157043/World_3_modelling_thumbnail9domj_300x300.png)
Friday Apr 14, 2023
Friday Apr 14, 2023
In this episode, Roberto Pasqualino, a researcher at the University of Cambridge shares how his work on the Economic Risk Resources and Environment model extends ‘The Limits to Growth’ with new insights relative to the dynamics of resource prices, employment, and general economic downturn. The talk is moderated by Sergey Kolesnikov from the University of Cambridge.
This was part of the 50th Anniversary of ‘The Limits to Growth’ Seminar Series, hosted by the Centre for Environment, Energy and Natural Resource Governance (CEENRG) at the University of Cambridge, in collaboration with the Club of Rome, Bennett Institute for Public Policy at the University of Cambridge, and the Global Sustainability Institute at Anglia Ruskin University.
![Mamphela Ramphele - Limits to Growth or Limits and Beyond?](https://pbcdn1.podbean.com/imglogo/ep-logo/pbblog14157043/LTG_or_limits_and_beyond_thumbnail98n36_300x300.png)
Friday Apr 07, 2023
Mamphela Ramphele - Limits to Growth or Limits and Beyond?
Friday Apr 07, 2023
Friday Apr 07, 2023
In this episode, Mamphela Ramphele, Club of Rome co-president and a co-author of ‘Limits and Beyond’, talks about the importance of including relational, cultural, and spiritual factors in addressing planetary emergencies. The talk is moderated by Roberto Pasqualino from the University of Cambridge.
This was part of the 50th Anniversary of ‘The Limits to Growth’ Seminar Series, hosted by the Centre for Environment, Energy and Natural Resource Governance (CEENRG) at the University of Cambridge, in collaboration with the Club of Rome, Bennett Institute for Public Policy at the University of Cambridge, and the Global Sustainability Institute at Anglia Ruskin University.